Meet Me in the Monologue

A podcast series that explores the intersection of writers and actors, process and performance, insight and inspiration – hosted by writer Dennis Bush, with Kelsey Pietropaolo, and Meggy Lykins.

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Meet Me in the Monologue

Meet Me In The Monologue, Episode 118, Guests: David Phipps-Davis & Antony Stuart-Hicks

May 11, 2026 • Dennis Bush • Season 1 • Episode 118

0:00 | 50:35

Welcome to this episode of Meet Me in the Monologue, a podcast series exploring the intersection of writers and actors, process and performance, insight and inspiration, hosted by writer Dennis Bush, with co-hosts Kelsey Pietropaolo and Meggy Lykins.

Our guests for this episode are writer-performer David Phipps-Davis and actor-producer Antony Stuart-Hicks. Join us as we focus on a monologue from David's script for the Mercury Theatre (in Colchester, UK) British Panto production of Mother Goose.

We encourage you to support the work of our guests.

https://www.instagram.com/phippsdavis/https://www.mercurytheatre.co.uk/mercurycreatives/creative-directory/antony-stuart-hicks/

Meet Me in the Monologue is edited and mixed by Martin W. Scott, who also serves as our announcer.

*This episode contains mature language.

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SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to Meet Me in the Monologue, a podcast series that explores the intersection of writers and actors, process and performance, inspiration and insight. Hosted by writer Dennis Bush with Kelsey Pietra Paulo and Maggie Likens.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Welcome to this episode of Meet Me in the Monologue. Joining my co-host Meggie Likens and I today are David Phipps Davis and Anthony Stewart Hicks joining us from the UK. Welcome. Hello. So normally we would dive into the monologue and I would ask Dave to set that up for us, but I think we need to do a little bit of a broader setup. I was telling you folks off camera that I had a conversation with a friend about this episode. I was so excited because you were going to talk about Panto, and he said, Pantone, like the company that picks the color of the year, you know, the little paint chips. But no, no, like British Pantomime, and then he said, Pantomime. Oh, that'll make for a quiet episode. So perhaps a brief overview of British Pantomime, and then that will set us up for the rest of the conversation. Do you want to go, Shallan?

SPEAKER_02 1:18

No, no, come on, love.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

You've been much more eloquent than I would. We'll find out, won't we? Um so pantomime now is a retelling of a traditional fairy tale in a type of vaudevillian style. So most pantomimes are traditional tales, like well, we're going to do uh talk about Mother Goose, but Peter Pan, Sleeping Beauty, Jack and the Beanstalk, lots of subjects like that. Lots of subjects that have been touched by Disney, which can and can't help us in many ways. And they've been going in this country for about 300 years now, I think. Once upon a time, they were they were very traditional storytelling family shows. And then in Victorian times, they started to cast comics, celebrity comics, who would then bring in their acts and just force them into the show. And that's type of where we are now. In in Victorian times, they would also cast celebrities who weren't performers. During the 1980s, lots of sports celebrities came into Panto, and there was a big backlash about why we got a cricket player in the panto. And in actual fact, there's a there's a poster from a Victorian panto that has a boxer in it, and it says every night live the boxer will bring an audience member up on stage and not them unconscious. I don't think they could get the risk assessments done for that now. But that you literally can have anything in a panto, and I suppose it's the the writer's job to try and incorporate it. Some writers do it more than others. I'm desperate to incorporate anything. If a cast member says they played the spoons, they're doing it in the show. But to try and justify it, but because it's so ludicrous, you don't have to justify it much. And it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

And there's lots of cross-dressing, isn't there? So there's a lot, there's you know, there's an actor who plays the day, which is what I've been doing for the last 30 years, and and David does that as well, and that's how we got to know each other. And then very traditionally, it used to be the principal boy where there would be an actress playing the principal boy lead, and that that is kind of tapered out now in modern-day pantomimes. But you, you know, you you will often have some kind of magical talking creature, you know, we've just had the goose, you can have, you know, a cow or puss in boots. So it's fairy tales kind of on steroids, really. We and very, very, very comedy driven, but with lots of heart.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

And it's it's a holiday tradition, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

So is it the equivalent of like Christmas carol, like regional theatres will do a Christmas carol year after year, and it's a big it's a big money generator for the company. That I mean the same with the Nutcracker for ballet companies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Yeah. Yeah. Most most theatres in the UK absolutely rely on the engine fuel that pantomime generates in regards to income because it will often underwrite a lot of other shows that producing houses put on. But it you know, it went through a time, I would say, in the 80s, probably, wasn't it, David, where it was kind of unfashionable as an actor to be in pantomime. And now I'm very glad to say, and certainly since we've been working together, it had a a complete resurgence. I mean, it is extremely hard work, and it is a craft on its on its own right, and there's still a lot of sniffiness about it, but you have to be able to be a quadruple threat. You have to sing, dance, act, and you have to be funny.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Not everybody can do that. So you must be the ultimate quadruple threat because weren't you dame of the year last year? The reigning dame of the year, as it were. The reigning dame.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah, yes, it was a very nice surprise. But it was it it was a a really lovely experience at the UK Pantomime Awards because it was the first piece that David and I had worked on together at the Mercury Theatre where I'm the resident dame. I'm senior producer there, but the production itself was nominated for five awards: script, production, set, costume, and dame. And it was the first time ever that's happened whilst I've been at Colchester, and it was just wonderful. So it was lovely to win the award, but it was even better to be nominated for those categories. It was fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

And to contextualise that, I work for a Panto company called Imagine, who have 18 venues that year, they've got more now, and over their 18 venues, they were nominated for 12 awards. This is a one in-house that was nominated for five.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 5:39

Yeah, so cool.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah, and it's and it's big business, and you've got to get it right. It you know, Panto is such a tradition for so many theatre loving folk, and and often it certainly was mine. It was my first live theatre experience as as a child. Same here, yeah. Because it's the most accessible, and it's accessible for such the broad generational gap of ages. I mean, it really can entertain eight to eighty, you know. Uh and should if it's written well and it's executed well. But yeah, it's big business now over here. Uh, I'm very glad to say.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Fabulous. About 270 theatres do a pantomime, professional theatres. And then usually in January, February, amateurs do it as well. I mean, m most amateur companies will do it.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Amazing. And I think Maggie's probably going to be walking around her house calling herself the resident dame from now until the end of the month.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

I like that. I like to sound that.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Well, Dave, if you could set up this particular piece, then we'll have Anthony dive in and do the performance.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Okay, so we did Mother Goose last year, only closed three weeks ago, didn't it, at the Mercury? Mother Goose is not a very well-known story in Panto. It's not very often done anymore, but it is considered the hamlet of Dame Rolls because she is the central character in the plot, but she isn't usually. We decided to set Mother Goose in a circus because we thought it would be fun. It's not usually been set in the circus, so it has been set in the circus before. So Gertie Goose is the owner of the circus. And this is Gertie's opening spot. We've had a fairy introduced to the show, an opening number, the goose, who is played by the comic, has come on and done his opening spot, and then goes off looking for his mum, his mother, and Gertie comes on.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Gertie's trying to find the script. Hold on.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

I thought Gertie abandoned the script months ago.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

I did, but you don't want me to do my version of it.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Well, no, you should do it. That's the discussion, isn't it? The fact that it changes so much.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

You can't remember it now. Oh, come on. I delete them as soon as we finish.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

I delete them as soon as we finish. It's an emotional problem. And I'm sure if you say it's me, Gertie, hello folks, Gertie's my name, funny's my game, the rest will come out.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Yeah, is that is that what is that was what was that one of the lines in the script? It was, yeah. I actually I actually typed that. That's outrageous. I don't remember that at all. Hold on one second.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

I'm trying to find we played Ugly Sisters together in in Cinderella six times, was it? I can't remember. And we've known each other for over 20 years, professionally and personally.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

So that must be quite a bit of makeup to make the two of you handsome and charming gentleman and it's a good thing. That's very kind.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Can you just screenshot it and send it to my WhatsApp? Because it this phone, honestly, this is a nightmare, this phone. Because I want I want to be able to do it justice. I can't, I can't. I'll do it on my phone. Oh, well done.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

But I mean, most of it is gonna be you ad libbing, really, isn't it? It is, it is, and it is.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

That's and you know, just to give you a bit of context with that, David's really, really great to work with because he is really not precious. He he is all about making sure that the right level of plot remains. But my dame, I've always been an ad libber, always. The script for me is there really as uh an anchor point for certain plot elements, and the rest I just like to kind of see how we work with an audience when it's there. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

You got it. Also, in the in an old fashioned script, it would just say Dame Gertie enters, own business, three minutes. I always write a spot, so often the whole spot will go, sometimes part of it goes. I mean, usually more of it remains, and possibly even Ash realizes it remains. But but yeah, I'm I'm very particular about if the plot elements stay in, but a gag is a gag is a gag. If it's getting a laugh, I don't care. And I'm not gonna pretend these are my gags. I mean, very rarely is it my gag. You're going around collecting stuff, and that's what all Panto writers do. But are you there, sis? You look very frozen on that three. Have we lost him?

SPEAKER_05 10:05

I fear we might have.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Oh, it's probably because he's looking at his WhatsApp.

SPEAKER_05 10:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

We're giving the technology a workout today.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

We really are.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

I've got no idea where he was. When I saw a white wall behind him, I knew it wasn't his his house because nothing none of his house looks like that. We have white walls in our house because we have a little bit of a back now. I don't know. Is it because you looked at WhatsApp? It might be because you looked at WhatsApp. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Oh, maybe. Maybe. Did you hear any of this? No. No, it was marvelous. It was marvelous.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

No doubt. No doubt.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

That was the first time I've ever done it. And actually, that's the first time I've ever done the script. It was outrageous. Outrageous. Um, right, let me try and remember this from the from the annals of my memory. Let me try and remember. Hello, folks. Goertie Goose is the name. Uh no, hold on. No, it's not, that's not what it was. What did you say it was, the line? Gertie's the name and fun is the game. Gertie's the name and fun is the game. God, I don't remember saying that at all. Um I don't. I don't. Hold on, hold on. Wait there. This is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05 11:25

Honestly, it's kind of working for the forum. I mean, we're talking about it being ever-evolving to this very day.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

It's never the same. It should never be the same. Never.

SPEAKER_05 11:35

Hold on one second.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Hold on. I have never laughed this much during another. This is what they use. It's usually like this. It's usually like this in rehearsals.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Um I'm looking for the for the for the performance script to see if I can give you a line that's that's closer to what you might have said, but let's see. No, it's alright.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Here we are, here we are, here we go, here we go, here we go. Hello, folks. Get is the name and fun is the game. Now, welcome to my circus. There's nothing like spending a night under a big top. Now you may remember me from my days as the star attraction. Yes, I was the human cannonball. I used to shoot over Ringmaster's back. And hey, that was clean when it left me, Dennis. Thank you. I used to shoot. Listen, but those days are long gone, and I'm a widow now too. Yes, we lost my husband, Bruce Zeus Goose, 18 years ago. Oh, that was one hell of a card game. Now, we met at a club. He gave me the eye, it fell out during the Macarena, and I had to help him put it back in. Oh, I can't tell you how much I miss my Brucey Goosey. So I was wondering if you've got any available hotties in today. And then what would usually happen is I start picking on these victims, we call them. Usually you pick on a guy and a lady if you if you need to, but generally on this one, it was just three guys that I used to pick and then kind of ricochet between the three throughout the show. But interestingly, that bit of the script there, I vaguely remember reading it on the read-through. Vaguely. Nearly all of that stayed, though, didn't it? And I just had lipped around it. Nearly all of it stayed, I think.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

No, I think most of that was was there in the performance. I mean, there was just bits and pieces, because you jump on the audience as soon as they give you any opportunity. I mean, literally, at one case in the show, jumped on an audience member.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Oh I did. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

And do those people have to pay extra for that?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Well, I I treated him like sea biscuit. Let's just say that.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

So are the double entendres uh in the family-friendly version? And do the the adults get that level and the kids just get the visuals and all of that?

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah, I mean I'm I'm quite I mean I go to the very edge of it, you know, kind of taste-wise when it comes to the double entendre, I I will push it and push it and push it. And then we do a very uh different thing to a lot of other places in the UK is we will do a specific 18 plus only adults version of the show later on down the line, and that is just utter, you know, lewd, crude, and fabulous. It's not for the easily offended, but that tongue-in-cheek humour has always been within Panto since it started. That those kind of topical gags, or those, you know, a bit like the carry-ons and Benny Hill and it's that kind of really cheeky, on the verge of naughtiness, to see how far you can get away with. But I mean there are some that don't like it who come to see Panto like that. There are some who really don't like it. And therefore I always say, Well, why are you coming? Why are you coming to see this art form? It's like going to see a Shakespeare play and saying you don't like Shakespeare. Well, then don't go.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

I think there is a common misconception that Panto is children's theatre. But if if it was children's theatre, we'd have far less people seeing it, it'd be running for far less time, and far fewer theatres would be doing it. The fact is it has to appeal on so many levels. Um we do we do school shows as well, which uh both of us don't really like because because then you're you're playing to you know one in thirty people is a is an adult, and you're trying to pick on one of the three men in the audience. But usually, certainly as a writer, you type of fill the script with enough for both, but obviously there's much more fun as dame in the evenings or in the afternoons, and the best audiences really are the the family audiences because also when they're with their parents, the kids uh can't just scream through the whole show, which is sometimes in school shows they just scream through the whole show, which particularly if you're playing the villain, which we've both done before as as women or as as I've played male villain as well, and sometimes in a school show you just stand there to a wall of noise. Whereas if they're sitting two seats up from their parent, the parent might do something about it, might not, but um you know, we hope they do if it gets out of hand. I mean, we've both had to basically stop shows before because it's got a bit too out of hand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Wow. Well, you'd have to stop for laughs too. I mean, when I when I read the script the first time when you sent it, I laughed out loud. I prepped again yesterday and laughed again. Last night laughed again and then laughed even harder with the performance today. I mean, it's just you go back and in each line there's five or six laugh bits. I mean, yeah, you know, shooting over the ringmaster's back, but those days are gone.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Just I'll I'll tell I'll tell the people that wrote those jokes if I can find out who they are. Um I'm not gonna claim ownership of any of that. I have to say, some of it is very, very old. The stuff about you know, fell out the the the the eye falling out during the dance, you just update the dance. That's that joke's probably over a hundred years old. And some of it works.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

It does work, and what I would do is then on the first read-through, I always do it as is as is written, and then I will work through all the rehearsal period, and I won't ever do my opening spot again until it's in front of an audience because I don't I there's nothing that's helpful to me to do it in front of the cast who are going to respond in a way that might be thinking, oh well we must laugh at this because he's doing it in front of you know us all in the rehearsal room. I need an honest response from the crowd to see what I need to add, what I need to change. So then I will I've I used all of what is there as anchor points and then rift on other gags. So, for example, once I'd done the um Ringmasters gag, I said, Oh, but before that, I was the world's first topless ventriloquist, nobody ever saw my lips move. You know, and so you just you go on from different springboards, and then when it was um talking about being a widow, there's lots of different strains that come from that for different ad libs. But I used to say, you know, 18 years ago we lost my husband. I will never forget the last thing he said to me just before he died. Are you still holding on to that ladder?

SPEAKER_03 18:10

There is a type of tradition with the dame, which we're trying to change a bit now, is that she is a you know a cock hungry murderess, really. Um and is is is it right that men are playing women like that? I don't know. I mean, I know I know a few. So we don't, I mean, generally a dame is on the lookout for a man because it's fun, particularly when it's a man playing the dame. We don't so much go down the road of, you know, I saw my husband die, was staggering around the back garden, so I reloaded all of those old gags, you know, but you know, and there's a lot of older versions that are, you know, but that is where it comes from, really. But we're trying to we're trying to make it a little more acceptable to more people now, without, you know, only a little more.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

There's a t-shirt waiting to happen with you know, carh hungry murderess.

SPEAKER_04 18:56

Yeah. Let's get branding.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, that is.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

I don't think the theaters are gonna put that on any posters, I think.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

I disagree. It's a missed opportunity.

unknown 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

So how did the two of you find each other work-wise? I mean, you've had you've had careers and and have ongoing careers outside of Panto, but how did you find each other initially?

SPEAKER_02 19:19

It was 2003, and I had seen an ad we have a uh an industry newspaper over here called The Stage. And it used to be then, in those days, it was the only place you found out about auditions. There was uh an advertisement in the back asking for Panto Danes who were experienced, who had their own wardrobe, and could come down to London and audition for a season for this producer. And I was uh I'm from Liverpool, so I I uh I'd worked in Liverpool in Panto, and I thought actually I wouldn't mind a change, see what it's like down south. So I came down and brought my costume and everything, my wig and everything with me, because that was what you did then. You you auditioned in full costume and makeup as I was getting changed.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

For dame, for damn not for anything else.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

And as um as I was getting changed, I met David, and David was there as well getting his face on, and we just kind of hit it off, didn't we? Really? From that day. Then we both ended up working in the same town that Christmas, and we used to meet for lunch, and we used to meet quite a lot for dinners as well. Um, I was I was in Snow White and Dave was in the Jungle Book, and from then we'd kind of said to this producer, you know, if you're ever looking for ugly sisters, do keep us in mind, you know. Um, you know, if you're ever looking. So it's and it's been since then, and uh because I've been a producer for as long as I've been an actor, and uh David has written or the pantos for me before he started writing for me at Colchester, and we've always got on, and there's always a shorthand there. We know exactly what it is that we need to achieve, and it was the same when we were working together as actors on stage, you know, there was this un unspoken chemistry that was just there. We knew even just by a look that we could riff on something if the audience were going with it, and that's that's quite rare. And I think David would agree with me there, it's very rare that you find people that you have that uh synchronicity with and that uh that ability to share in the laughter, because that's not often the case.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

And I think for me it's the scripts will always be comedy-led, and some pantos are not not comedy led. Some panto scripts they're relying on the on the comic and the um the dame to add the comedy. Some scripts are funny and they don't cast funny people. And I think the best thing is to cast funny people and have a funny script and then find the best of all of that. I mean, Dale, who plays the comic in Colchester, has been there for a long time as well. Yeah, and he's he They both got additional material buy credits. And um, I mean, I get the rehearsal reports every day, so I see what's being changed. And very, very occasionally I say, could it possibly be this instead? Um but um and generally that's that's a yes that comes back. But um, you know, as I said, a gag is a gag. If it's getting a laugh, you know, I'm not it's it's only time I question things is if something is delight diluted for the plot. Yeah, because we we have very little plot that we have to carry in pan, so a little bit more in Mother Goose. Yes, there was a year before we did the new adventures of Peter Pan, so it wasn't the traditional Peter Pan, so we had to do a a bit more plot then because we were inventing plot, but obviously, usually I'm doing stories that the audiences know back to front that you always have to presume they don't know it, even if you're doing Cinderella, there will be some kids who don't know the story of Cinderella, but you don't need to spoon feed the plot too much, yeah. So it is going to be mainly comedy-led, and that's what brought us together, really. You know, yeah. I should point out he's being very nice, but he got the job, I didn't, you know. They offered me Baloo in Jungle Book as a type of consolation prize, but yeah, I yeah, I yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

We're putting everybody's business right on the street, and I s I support this plan. I like it. Absolutely. So, in terms of the way that Panto is perceived in the the British acting world, do you do you get credit for the range? You know, if you're gonna go from a broad character in Panto to something in Coriolanus or a Tom Stoppard piece, do audiences appreciate the incredible range it takes to pull those off?

SPEAKER_02 23:44

I think the audiences do because they look at your CV and you and you know in your bio and think, oh, you know, that's a versatile career. It's the industry that has the issue with it.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

So I think it's somewhat changed when when Ian McKellan played Day, yeah. Suddenly it was oh it was legitimized, wasn't it? Yeah, but certainly when we started, it was very much like, oh, it's the dregs. Yeah, you know, it's the dregs, you know, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

And one of the reasons I gave up performing full-time was because you know, Panto has always been there in my career, always, and it's the one area of my acting that I've never I've never not trusted that I could do it all the time. And you know, I was getting in for auditions for jobs, and you'd do a really great audition, you'd think, okay, that's that's fine, lovely, I'll do it. And then they'd um then say, Oh, uh, if we give you the job, can you take all of the panto credits off your biog? Well, no, I can't. Frankly, no, the answer's no, because actually, without all of that work, even in Panto, I wouldn't be able to stand in front of you now and play Saturninus in Titus Andronicus. So, you know, it it's all it is all relevant, and there's there is still, I'd love to say it's a small portion of the industry, but there is still a sniffiness about it. There is there really is, and it's not until they actually, I mean, you know, they come and see it, and yes, there are a varying range of quality of shows out there, but generally now the general public really want something that is value for money and they want excellent production value. So you can't you can't not deliver to their expectations, but it's it is hard work and it's really difficult to get some industry folk to understand that I do 84 performances that are never the same because the audiences I do that show for whoever is in that crowd that day, and that creates repeat bookings. It means people think that they are getting something that is absolutely generated for them in that moment, and it is truthful, and I thought that's what Actum was about.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

And we're both in venues as Dame where there is no star casting in the big, big city pantos. There are there are massive stars starring in the pantos, and we're both in in smaller venues. Um that so so the regular you've been there for 10 years, I've been in Stafford for three years, but really they're the faces that me and the same comic have been together for three years, the faces that the audience know and are are coming back for. And the three years I've been in Stafford, the ticket sales have gone up without the aid of billing, and obviously the ticket sales have have gone you know through the roof in Colchester over the years. I mean, you've barely got any tickets left, and you it's a very, very long run in Colchester.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

A very long run, yeah. We do nine and a half weeks, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

And the sets are spectacular in the costumes. I mean, I gasped at some of the the set pieces, just yeah, astonishing.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

And in Colchester it's bespoke. It's yeah, there's two very different ways, and I've written commercial pantos where generally you're writing to a given cast and a given set, and in Colchester, you know, I I have a meeting with the artistic director and with Ash with a blank piece of paper, and we we know the subject. And if, for example, Tash and Natasha Rickman, who's the artistic director, says, I want Act One to end with a helicopter flying out over the audience, the whole show has to be constructed around that, and that is what happened. It's not unusual for something like that to happen because spectacle is part of pantomime as well, if you can do it. So that that has been done elsewhere, helicopters and obviously flying car pits in Aladdin, you know, that's probably where it all came from. Um, at the London Palladium Panto in Dick Whittington, which is set in London, they had a double-decker bus flying out over the the audience, but it does mean the show is constructed around making the storyland at that point, but also the physical limitations of having to prep that on stage as well. So taking stuff into the auditorium and away from the stage, which is having to be blacked out to get this on without them seeing the means by which the um the helicopter is flying, and you know that's that is the nice thing about writing for an in-house panto because you really are starting from the ground up.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Um so how do you manage um Anthony? How do you manage all of your administrative and directing work with your performing work?

SPEAKER_02 28:27

I work a lot of hours, but I I um you know I've been doing that kind of multiple plate spinning gig for so long now that it it doesn't phase me. I just have to be I'm very strict with myself about keeping myself healthy, eating well, sleeping as much as I possibly can. I sleep in between the shows, I have a full at least an hour sleep in between the shows, and it's great because I feel as though I'm waking up rejuvenated and I've only got one show a day. When I haven't, I've got two. So, you know, I we can do 12 shows a week in Panto. Some do more, but we do 12, and it's it's exhausting work, but I think when you are when you are the producer of the show as well as in it, when there are day-to-day situations that come up, it's it's much more decisive to be there in the building than just be able to be there and support and and get things done. They're a fabulous team. I mean, oh the the whole team, the workshop, wardrobe, stage management, technical, all of front of house. We are so lucky at the Mercury. They are second to none, they are really are fantastic, and I'm sure Dave has the same experience in Stafford, they're just wonderful because they understand the importance of that show in that theatre because it keeps the theatre and everybody, really, it keeps everybody in a job.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Yeah, Stafford are lovely as well. To contextualize the number of performances, the first Cinderella we did together, we did six days rehearsal into a 16-show week, into a 14-show week before we had a day off.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

And we were doing 14 changes a show. Some of those days we were obviously doing three shows. Yeah. We were younger then. I had hair, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

So yeah, I couldn't do it now. Couldn't do it now. And you get support from the people in your lives, I would imagine. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Yes. I'm very I'm very, you know, very fortunate. I I'm actually my fiancee isn't in the industry, he's a teacher, and he's very supportive because you do need a lot of emotional support to get through a panto season. It's especially in the roles that we have as Dame, it is the pressure is quite debilitating sometimes because you want to make sure that people are getting enough laughs for their book, and that's you know, it's quite a mean feat sometimes. But my you know, I'm very very, very fortunate, and you know, David David has a partner who is in the industry as well.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

So yeah, Jenny Perry's my partner who also does Panto. She's she was playing Fairy in um Robin Hood and Made Marion in Newbury this year and moaning and groaning about the the the you know the 15 minutes she had in the show. Um, you know, and I was doing 21 costume changes. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, 21 costume changes?

SPEAKER_03 31:28

It was self-inflicted. Ash does less, but they're all bespoke. Um but I do this thing where I change every entrance and the script had me coming on 21 times. It means I mean I had two dressers, it was their work, but I I didn't think at 50 I would be doing the most costume changes I've ever done in my life. I thought it would be going, you know, I'd never done more than 14 before. Usually it's about 11. It won't be 21 this year. Oh my god. I've already agreed that with the wardrobe department.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

But yes. There's got to be a reel of your quick changes out there somewhere where it's just one one costume into another, into another, into another.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

I mean, that's I mean, if you do a one very quick change and you did one very quick change in Mother Goose, which is Deliberate, the impact is phenomenal because the all yeah. Um and but in the the other rest of the time, the audience see you're changing, but I don't think they quite grasp how quickly you're changing.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

And it is it is gruelling because you know, when you are Dame, you don't go back to your dressing room. You are there from the beginner's call, and if you're not on stage, you're changing. If you're fortunate enough, you can go back to your dressing room in the interval and maybe have you know five, ten minutes, but then you're getting prepped again to get back into the next series of costumes, and you know, all of my costumes at Colchester, it's a full change all the time. So I'm changing everything from shoes, sometimes even tights, all the way through. And I wear like a curved suit because I like to have this hourglass figure, so I always have that on, the costumes are molded to it. Like Dave, we always have very elaborate things in our in our hair, in our wigs, and it's you know, sometimes I'm nine foot in my costume. You know, nine foot and two metres wide sometimes, you know. Uh so they're they're quite uh they're quite uh uh an impactful, you know, uh vision because that they are sometimes they are as expensive as a large piece of set.

unknown 33:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

I mean most of your costumes you're talking about thousands. Oh, at least pr probably four thousand a costume.

unknown 33:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

And that's that's before the wig, that's before the shoes, before the jewellery, just on materials and labour, probably about four thousand a costume.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

And in those costumes, it's like you're doing a marathon and a sprint at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Yeah, so they have to be made so that they're rigorous enough to survive that length of run. And you know, it's a very physical part, but also they've got to look fabulous, and I've always, always wanted to look fabulous. My dame is a is a celebration of the strong women that brought me up, have been around in my life since childhood, who who made me the man I am. So it's it's my nan. I know, yeah. You know, it is my nan, and all of her sisters are all a little element of them all, is in my dame. So she is fierce, she is working class, she is a flirt, but she takes no rubbish off anybody. She has to control that room, but she also has to look fabulous.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

But this was a thing that came into writing the script for Mother Goose, because when we had the first script meeting, Mother Goose is generally a woman who starts off as dowdy, excuse me, thinks she's ugly and wants to be beautiful, then does a deal with a demon to get go into a magical pool or get an elixir to become beautiful. And of course, the first conversation was Ash saying, Well, I don't want to be dowdy. And then then Tash, the the artistic director who directed it, said, Well, I don't think we need to be sending out a message about you can't be what you want to be. So if you want to be beautiful, we can't because the story is she becomes beautiful, she becomes vile with that, and actually in the end she becomes dowdy again, and everyone loves her. So I knew the minute I started writing that quite a hefty amount of the traditional Mother Goose story was going out the window. That said, and I was I'm quite a traditionalist, so I was like, and then Tash quite rightly said, but how many people in that audience are actually going to know the story of Mother Goose? And actually, even people who think they know it, I've asked, and they don't actually say the whole traditional story. Most people think of there's a book, an American children's um nursery rhyme book called Mother Goose Stories, and it's just a collection of of nursery rhymes or nursery stories, fairy stories, and in a way it's a bit more like the the old woman who lived in the shoe or the telling stories. Um, but that's got nothing to do with with the mother goose pantomime that we do. So, in actual fact, the whole script writing process was based on she couldn't be dowdy to begin with. Usually she's given a goose that lays golden eggs that um that make her rich. Well, because the comic was going to be playing the goose, the goose had to be on from the beginning, so we had to be a normal but talking goose who then was cast a spell on to make him give golden eggs. Tash wanted this helicopter at the end of Act One, so usually it's the transformation at the end of Act One, so I had to and the helicopter was to go and get Billy the Goose back from the villain, so that bit usually happens in Act Two, so we have to move that back into Act One, change that. We didn't have the transformation because we we were already glamorous. So in actual fact, we didn't really do a transformation to the end, and that was more of a costume transformation. Yeah, so in actual fact, what I started off thinking I was gonna write was a very different show to the one I ended up writing, and I love that challenge because I would have done quite a traditional Ragoose with some interesting bits in it, and and I'm being, you know, not forced into a corner, but um but led, you know, persuasively into a corner where I've got to write my way out of it, and and I think we came out with a much better and more interesting and more original script than we would have done otherwise. Some traditionalists didn't like it, most people didn't care, even if they were traditionalists because it was such a fun show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

And it it it it's I would say it was the most difficult dame I've had to do. My dame doesn't really change. My dame is my dame, that's my act. You know, she's a liver puddle, working class flirt. She always has been, she always will be. With Mother Goose, there had to be at the end of the act this realisation that you know she had become very selfish and very vain.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

Because she sold the goose, who's basically her son, basically, and she sold the goose to get this elixir of beauty.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah, and it was it was a wonderfully written script. And if I had been not the dame who who needs to have a constant contact with the audience, so the fourth walker never come up for me, never. And I was finding it really difficult in rehearsals to get it, it was such a beautifully emotionally uh written scene, and it really was getting to me, and it was you know, it was uh I couldn't help but burst out crying when we were doing it. But because of the way I play my dame, I kept saying, I just don't feel as though I'm gonna be able to do this and give and do it justice with what Dave's written, but also be able to retain what I need to do as the dame. We got it in front of a crowd, it evolved ever so slightly, but once that shift had happened, that was it. It just worked, and it was still emotional, it was still loaded with pathos, it was still funny as well, and you got you got that the balance was so right that the audience just went with it, and it was it was I have to say, it was it was really hard. I had three really tough days in rehearsal where I actually thought I don't know whether I can do this. And luckily, the the support of having a writer who I know, who I know understands what I was saying, and also a director who was aware that I needed to find this route out of this to make it work for me. It was it was lovely, it was really it was so helpful, and it just worked.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

It just worked to give a backstory, and I won't I won't divulge your entire life, but there were it was hitting bits of Ash's real life story, yes, and to be honest, mine, my relationship with one of my parents that I didn't realise until I heard it coming out of his mouth at the read-through, and suddenly I realized something that had been said to me by one of my parents and when they were leaving was in the script. I thought, we're out in a bloody pantomime here. What's going on? The two of us are getting upset.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Yeah, it was it was, it was it was so raw, uh, and I just because she was saying lines to apologize for what she did, and I'd never received that as a child. And I just I just couldn't get over, I just couldn't get through it, and I wanted to, I desperately wanted to, because I I felt as though it was so right to do it, and I I could tap into the emotional, you know, rawness of it, that was fine. But I thought if I go here, if I break, I can't come back from this because they've never seen me that vulnerable, this audience. Never, and we got it, so it was just it was just on the tip, and it was it was that, but it was it was quite cathartic, I have to say, to do it.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

It was the one thing I was worried about because I because my pantos much shorter, I I saw their dress rehearsal, open dress rehearsal before I started rehearsals, and then I came back after minor closed and saw the last two weeks of the run, some of the performances. And so I'd been at the first day of rehearsal, the read-through, and then I came back for the um last run in the room, and then I came back for the public dress, and I don't ever get because I direct as well, and I don't ever give actors notes, I would always give it through the director. As I did, I emailed Tash with lots and lots of notes, not mainly about the script, and not it's not my business how they're playing it, but the one thing I did say to Ash is you're gonna have to trust this because it's gonna be hard in the school shows when this the kids aren't gonna be so interested in this because it is lovely what you're doing, and remember to trust it because it and I thought when I came back, will it still be there or will we have gone to a washed-out version of and it actually it was still there. I mean, also keeping in mind that we've got to get through this little bit of drama, but we're gonna start singing the beginning of a share medley straight after it. So when you go into if I could turn back time, which lyrically completely worked for the moment, but you know, you don't stay there for very long.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Yeah, yeah. Wow, it was it was it was a mountain, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Why isn't there a time machine that Maggie and I can get in and go back and see this live? I feel deprived.

SPEAKER_06 42:26

Oh well, I've been taking copious notes over here because I'm so inspired by this conversation overall, just because I think there's something I think as a writer, I'm constantly thinking about like just subconsciously, originality and you know, making something new, right? I think it's natural as an artist, but I love what we're talking about in this conversation, that it's more about what happens when you start at a place of, well, no, it's it's Mother Goose. This is not an original story at all. What freedom does that open up? And that then extending to this like lack of preciousness as the writer to collaborate then with the performers that are coming in with fresh perspective and that making it more original than it ever could have been if the writer were to sort of, as you were saying, David, like stay in their own lane. It was almost better when you were backed into a corner and forced to get even more creative on top of that.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

I mean, don't get me wrong, I've been in situations where chunks of the plot have been cut. You know, sometimes character has been split into two characters or the combined character, and it makes no sense. But I know that won't be happening at Colchester, but um, you know, I that does happen. Sometimes you'll you'll get a director, a comic, and a dame who just don't care, and then and then and then a review will say, Well, why did the the writer write that? And well, it was explained to you two scenes ago, but it's been cut, and that is very, very frustrating. Because in actual fact, there's always a shorter way to do the plot. If they came to me and said, Look, it's taking too much time, I could do it in half the time, a quarter of the time, or if we were Taking it out completely, I'd remove it in both places. But you know, you've got to fit all that work. But so in actual fact, I feel safer. I don't just write for Colchester. I wrote, I write two pantos last year, I wrote two pantos the year before. And you don't you have to give it away, really. But um but it you but it's treated with some respect at Colchester. I think because they are a regional producing house and they treat me very much like they would treat most writers who they employ to write plays, and you wouldn't be rewriting most managements wouldn't be rewriting a play in rehearsal without the writer's involvement. I mean, I know we all know it happens.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Oh, it's happened. I mean, you know, before before I worked with FIPSI where I work now, you know, I've had to rewrite a complete script because it just didn't work at all. And for me, I am so strident on anything that is about the comedic value of the piece. You know, they are people are spending their hard-earned cash to come and escape and feel comfortable and this sense of you know warmth with a story that they may know or may not know, but they know they're coming to see a type of show that they have great affection for, and they're coming to laugh. And I am I'm militant on it. It has to be funny and as funny as it possibly can be, not just for the principal comic and the and the dame. If you've got performers who have got that that great sense of humour and their timing is good, then share the laughter because then actually sharing that laughter out and not keeping it all for ourselves allows us to then spark more ad libs from other things, and it's just it's really it's such a lovely team effort sometimes to do it that way. You get some actors who don't want you to. I mean, somebody did say to me once, are you gonna change that every performance? I said, I'm gonna change it every time I say it from now until we finish. Yes. And he really didn't like it. And I went, but this is the gig. This is the gig. I'm doing a two and a half hour improvisation show twice a day. You've got the easy job, you're you're doing the script, I'm not. So you've just got to listen because that is also what acting is. You have to listen. I don't it's not about your contribution from the words sometimes, it's how you listen, is I think rates you as an actor in that kind of situation. So it you know, you do hit some of these barriers sometimes, but also I think what is so wonderful is I know I'm gonna be working with a script that has been written for me and for the people that are in the show and the audience that come to see it, and it's quality, and that's why I I wanted to work with Dave on it, because I know that it's going to be good, and that removes so much anxiety from me as a returning performer who has a lot of pressure on them for it to be funny, but I just know it's gonna be I know it's gonna be quality, and that's a great springboard to go from rather than oh, we are in trouble here. How do we make this work?

SPEAKER_03 47:01

I mean, it it's useful for me as well to know who I'm writing for because it is, you know, personality through the character, you know, in all of the roles really, but particularly the comic and the dame. And if, for example, I was writing a commercial script and it had a celebrity in it, I would try and put everything in that they're famous for doing and all the references to them in it to make it as much about them. I mean, we always firmly set the show in Colchester, and I think that's what we should do. We should, but it's not just a few topical references, the set as well looks like places in Colchester, but it is trying to make it as inclusive of the cast and the audience as possible so they feel it's their panto because there are a lot of pantos around, they could easily go up the road if they want something different.

SPEAKER_06 47:42

I love that. I feel like you guys talk about your audience with such reverence and respect, and it's this whole conversation, it's like this sort of dichotomy of the content. Yes, lots of levity, lots of fun, lots of a gag is a gag kind of stuff, but this deep seriousness about what it's how impactful it is to people and the respect that not only are they gonna get it, but it there needs to be a standard that's good enough for them, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 48:08

I think sometimes it can be too comic. I saw Snow White once where Snow White had just died, and one of the dwarfs said, good, and it got a big it got a big laugh. It got a big laugh. And I said, But do we really need it? Do you really is that the moment to be getting a laugh? No, you actually probably say yes, but well, yeah, but I would say not to be poor Snow White. No, but I just think you know, it's I don't think at that moment you need to be funny, but some some writers would disagree with me, and lots of comics would disagree with me. Like in Cinderella, usually you've got the kind repertor of buttons who is in love with Cinderella and desperately wants her to like him, and some of the comics don't like doing that. I think it's a gift because you get to show more than just being funny, but some of them and some of them like to undermine it. And I say, please play that for real, you know, because it will be something you're not doing for the rest of the show. But um you Maggie, you talked about talking writing originally. I've only just in my life reached a point where I feel that I possibly could write something original. All of my writing has been adaptation, either pantomime or adapting novels for the stage. And now I find myself thinking, maybe I could have a go at writing an original play. But do it. Do it so exciting. I don't know as a 50-year-old white cis male if I'm allowed to even have a voice. Yes, yes, you are.

SPEAKER_06 49:28

I think I think everyone should be writing. Dennis and I were just talking about this at dinner with a friend, that there's so much value in both seeing what's going to come out for yourself, but also like you have no idea what's gonna be impactful for someone else to get to have. So I can't wait to see what you come up with.

unknown 49:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

And that's a perfect way to bring this episode to a close. Thank you guys so much. We had so much fun. So much fun. It's great talking to you.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

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